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August 20, 2024
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On this episode of the Cannacurio Podcast, Ed Keating sits down with Brett Puffenbarger. Brett shares his unique journey to the cannabis industry, coining the tagline "from bong to boardroom." He delves into his passion for marketing operations, the importance of radical transparency in fostering genuine change in the cannabis sector, and also highlights the complexities of the industry, from the legacy market to the corporate world, emphasizing the need for collaboration. His deep insights into business strategy, compliance, and managed services make this episode a valuable listen for anyone in the cannabis space.
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Ed Keating
Welcome to the Cannacurio Podcast powered by Cannabiz M I'm your host, Ed Keating, and on today's show, we're joined by Brett Puffenbarger, the VP of Marketing at Greenleaf Business Solutions. Welcome, Brett!
Brett Puffenbarger
Hey Ed, thanks for having me, man,
Ed Keating
Absolutely, absolutely. So you're the first guy who's ever come with a calling card that says from 'bong to boardroom', so, so, so tell me how you came up with that, because it's, it's quite a unique calling statement.
Brett Puffenbarger
You know, I don't know. It was one of those things where, so I came to cannabis in what I kind of call the transplant era. So it was the early adopters, but not the "early" adopters, right? So, like the first group that jumped over after they weren't afraid helicopters were going to show up. Specifically, I'm an east coaster, so I was down in Florida at the time. I was working at Harley Davidson, I jumped into cannabis then, and I think that's a specific era, right? If you look at the eras of cannabis and how it's grown, the East Coast, kind of set off a chain reaction of MSO states and some other stuff, right? We can see it. It's pretty clear. So that's where I was at when I jumped into cannabis, so I came from, I came into cannabis that way. Excellent, excellent. So, and in terms of your background, you know for what you shared, VR marketing, business development, brand cultivation. So really, covering, you know, most of the marketing mix, all the marketing mix, you know, any nuances there, yeah, so I'm a, I'm a Marketing ops guy at heart, so that can kind of get us back to the original question, two of the bong de boardroom part, right? So I wanted to reflect that piece of me, the transition from this kind of operations minded corporate America guy, granted, it was Harley Davidson, right? Like, I was in Harley Davidson. This isn't like corporate America, right? Like, I'm not on Wall Street. It was jeans and, you know, a button down and all of this. So I was at Harley Davidson. I was a director of business development. That doesn't sound like a huge thing, but Harley makes a lot more money off of T shirts, leather jackets. It's a lot of retail stuff. So I jumped into cannabis in retail at an MSO, me and a dude from Disney building, you know, retail stores, because it's all lifestyle branding, the whole nine yards. That was the beginning. Went back to school, you know, now doing the PhD thing. So all of that, I think, kind of formed this dual human being who looks like me and I'm all like, clearly, a weak person, but I kind of have the resume of one that would not look like me or talk like me or be into the things I'm into in my regular everyday life outside of work. So I think those kind of things melded into this attempt at a tagline, attempted, you know, a career of very fun, cool and exciting things that all sells the same stuff, right? It's yeah.
Ed Keating
So tell us a little bit about all the academic about you doing. You know, not many people are heading toward a PhD, and what drove you in that direction?
Brett Puffenbarger
I think I just needed to do it because the rest of it was interesting to me. So I came to college late, right? So I didn't go to college for a bachelor's until after I had already made the jump into cannabis. So I went back to school as a person who had worked at like, a director's level, like, you know, I had been decently Okay, building myself up in the regular world before making this jump into cannabis. So I went back to school because I wanted, in my mind the paperwork, right? I was, I need the paperwork. So I learned a bunch of skills along the way, because I went to a kind of a trade school of sorts, but for, like, the media arts. So like, I went to Full Sail Florida, they do show production and recording arts and all that. I went for Media Communications, and I learned how to do all kinds of cool like media marketing, kind of utility, nice things that let me jump into cannabis in a different way. Decided I wanted to figure something fun out from that, so I decided to do a Master's in Public Relations. That's actually how I built the whole LinkedIn following thing that was my master's thesis. So after I did that, now, I was like, Well, that was really cool, and it like was effective at building a career, so PhD seemed fun. And I'll be candid with you and everybody else, I guess, who's listening. One of my regrets is I did not take my wife's advice. She told me to go get an MBA, and I didn't do it. I specialized in public relations. It turned out okay with the LinkedIn following which, if I'm being super honest, was also her idea, because she said, Hey, you should stop arguing on Facebook. If you're going to argue, you should argue with people who matter and somewhere in the world. So I came to LinkedIn to argue. And that's, I don't know, I guess that's where it all started.
Ed Keating
I love that. And, yeah, I got the MBA. I don't know if you missed out on much. I think you're doing great work with the path you've chosen. And one of the things that leads me to think it sort of ties into maybe the Harley stuff is in some of your writings talk about being a Rebel Heart, and you approach the cannabis sector through this notion of radical transparency and a drive to foster change. What the hell is that? Mean? Like, help me understand that, unpack that.
Brett Puffenbarger
So I think a lot of people let me, let me break a couple of those pieces down. Yeah. So I think inherently I'm rebellious because of the way my brain works. It's not because I want to be. I think I have been painted that way first before I decided, You know what, I'll just go ahead and embrace it. It's, I mean, Harley Davidson, right? Like rebel lifestyle branding right before that, I was a punk rock kid. At one point I did karate professionally, like, I, like, taught it, and did all of that, and worked at martial arts schools, and so I've done a lot of interesting, weird things.
Ed Keating
Yeah,
Brett Puffenbarger
rambled a little bit there. So that's all right.
Ed Keating
So in terms of trying to foster genuine change in the industry. What does that mean for you? Or what does it mean for the industry?
Brett Puffenbarger
I would like to see people be a little more open and honest with the struggles of the industry, but in a little bit less of a hackles up ego sort of way. I think it kind of goes to the tagline too, right? I see both sides of that cannabis world, and I hope I infuse that into the things I say and the companies I work at and all of that. Because one of the one of the reasons I work where I work now, one of the reasons I work where I've worked in the past, is when I first got into cannabis, I was like, I want to take care of patients. Then it was, wait. I love cannabis businesses, because then you can expand your sphere of help, right? How can I be a positive influence, not for patients, because it's whatever a budget, or even if I own an MSO, I have a set number of patients and the set number of markets I'm in, if I can help every single one of them get bank accounts and make that little piece easier. If I can help them get payroll services, HR services, I if I can help them offer their employees living wages, benefits, all of those things, if I can facilitate the the growth of all of it that, to me, was taking care of the most amount of people. So that's what I try to think about when I when I look at every situation in cannabis, right? Like, I think it's safe to say there are a lot of hot button issues, right? Cannabis is a an industry full of passion, right, from the early days to now, right? Everybody's passionate. We're here. I think passion, a lot of times, leads to misunderstandings and miscommunications turning into larger things than they need to be. And I think we need to be able to have conversations and come to common ground, because whether we want to agree on it or not, we're all in the same boat, whether it's like the legacy operators who are mad, or anybody else. You know, I said this a long time ago, and it's been a long time since I've done a long form podcast where I could say it again, and then we could talk about it a little bit, because I'd love to hear the to see the data breakdown of this one day after we talk through this, I think there's two sides to every coin. And I think the cannabis industry, loosely, has, you know, the legacy guys and the corporate guys, right? And I think it's important to come to that table realizing that off the rip on both sides I think are valid, and I've always called them the heart and the head, right? We have the heart to build the brand and the quality and all of those pieces, right? That's what makes it real. And then you got out the head to figure out the complex wave narrative all the cannabis is nuts. Let's just stop trying to be wax poetic. About it and just call it what it is. It's 39 separate disparate markets that can't intersect very much with a patchwork of companies trying to figure it out. And it's startups powering startups on top of startups. Chaos.
Ed Keating
true, yeah. We call them 39 sovereign nations. I mean, it's absolutely crazy. And then you start to throw on the international side of it too. So, so one of the other areas I wanted to dig into Brett is, you are a multi firm customer of Cannabiz Media. You've used this at a couple places. And, you know, one of the questions we're just curious about is, you know, as your teams have used Cannabiz Media, you know how they use it, and what have the workflows been like at your companies? Because you've been in very different kind of businesses. And, you know, what have you learned? Because, you know, you're somebody that we can learn from too, at Cannabiz Media.edia.
Brett Puffenbarger
They're not different kinds of businesses. They're not, I'm not, they're not, I'm not. So I think that's the fundamental piece, right? So I'll go back to marketing 101, on this, for how I've approached us, using you as a tool, and then it'll also explain why they're the same kind of business, right? Yeah, so I look at the entire world of building, marketing, everything through buyer personas. I know that that's like fundamental 101, like work piece kind of marketing stuff, but I really do. And then I look at us as an organization, as a buyer persona to then figure out how to use your tool, right? So every company I've been at shares a few pieces of the same DNA, right? We already talked about one when we were talking about the, like, heartfelt, fun stuff we were talking about a minute ago. Right? Now, we're in the nuts and bolts. So one of the main things you use it for is marketing campaigns, right? So that's a buyer persona. How is it, you know, whatever. How is it affecting marketing campaigns? I think I broke it down in the post the other day. Yeah, you did all kind of the same, right? Like each one of those is a buyer persona for you guys and vice versa. A reason for me to be a champion for it within an organization. Back to the DNA piece, right? All of us are ancillary service providers to cannabis companies who want to target variably specific lists, which is traditionally very difficult to have, right? Like there's only so many options that allow us to even try this in only our sandbox, right? So I think for marketing, it's the email functionality, right? That's your buyer persona. I want to reach the largest audience, for the compliance audience, I think that's the one who's going to be sitting here going, why the heck is this guy doing it? I'm a nerd, y'all, and I like data a lot, and my compliance friends, I love you, and I want you to know that you can use this tool a crapload of ways. I've seen people use it for license verification, negative news hits. I've seen them use it in underwriting processes. I've seen them use it in all sorts of ways. I'm not saying exclusively. I'm not saying you're using it in any illegal or weird or fuzzy ways. I'm not no impri. I mean, like, just straight up the same tool everybody else uses has facets that I've seen them unlock and be excited by and use often. I also think it's one of the main in I have seen very effective targeted use by sappy startup like CROs digging in on building already connected like name value. Humans like not going to name names, but there are certain people out there who everybody goes, what do they do for a living? They find people that have cannabis subscriptions, and they use that to targetedly Network their way into conversations and open doors. So I think that's my point being. It is a hellaciously effective data tool for business development. You can you can build a web of humans to talk to, and it gives you context, right? If you're a nerd like me, okay?
Ed Keating
That's hat'svery helpful. And I think that kind of validates some of the stuff that that we've seen with our own personas, whether it be sales and marketing people doing research or people doing compliance, lots of lots of ways to use it. Now you're currently at Greenleaf Business Solutions, which is kind of interesting, because I think when I first met you, you were at Green check, so sort of working at two, two types of firms that are both heavily in the compliance space. In my mind, you know, I used to work in HR pu Publishing in that whole area. So I'm sort of familiar a little bit with Greenleaf, and even with Green Check, you know, it's sort of like regulations within the regulated cannabis industry. What's that like? I mean, you know, how, how have you found Greenleaf to be? Because it's a whole new set of rules and regs that maybe, for a data nerd like you, it's just a heck of a lot of fun and a new place to swim around.
Brett Puffenbarger
I think it's a lot of the same and a lot different, and a lot of all of it at once. So I love Greenleaf. I've been really interested in actually unpacking it from that like cannabis banking perspective, right? So I come from this world of cannabis banking laws, and then you realize that payroll isn't a big jump from payroll to HR. It's not a jump. It's a very linear building block process of a business. And it's actually kind of funny. I don't think I've said this to anyone out loud before. I'm going through this PhD, ba, right? So I'm doing a PhD of business and then strategic marketing, right? So it's kind of like a PhD and a DBA at the same time. It's been interesting that, as I've like, onboarded, I was kind of going through a specific track of courses that were about like Structural Function of businesses and some of the key pieces that Greenleaf does every day. So it's actually been really interesting to be inundated with it from the theoretical academic side and watching it every day with a new set of coworkers. It's been stimulating, overwhelming, exciting. I'm loving it, yeah.
Ed Keating
Sort of that combination of exhilarating and exhausting all at the same time.
Brett Puffenbarger
Yeah. I mean, it's long days, long hours. Add in all of the fun. For anybody who doesn't know me personally or pay attention in the world, my wife and I spend a lot of time with plants outside. It's very important to my existence to garden. I think we just counted. We have 28 different edible foods on our property, or something at this point that we can do. So I don't have a lot of time, but it's, you know, it's worth it. At the end of the day, I feel like we're making a lot of measurable change here at Greenleaf, in organizations in a really fundamental way, like I loved providing cannabis banking solutions, right? Like, that's a fundamental core piece of a business. This is a step more, and something that makes Greenleaf different than anybody else I could have landed at is that they do some things that nobody else does. They do full blown managed services, meaning I have co workers who are acting as full blown bolt on departments for companies. And that doesn't sound like a big deal, but it is unfettered access to understanding how cannabis companies operate at a fundamental human level, and then being able to unpack that, to solve problems, has allowed us to, I guess, my whatever I'm gonna do it so like we have been able to work with some very massive, massive companies in cannabis, In a very, very hands in way on a full managed services deal, right? We can do it for big and small companies, but we've implemented it with some pretty huge names. It has been so enlightening to understand how improvement of processes procedures, or letting a team who doesn't take days off or do any of the things that like normal, doing it internally calls as a company, right? It's so much easier to just let a team handle it, and then watching my team do that handling it's been, man, it's been really like, I feel like, I like touch that cube in the halo TV show where he's like, anyway, sees the universe or whatever happened. That is what it felt.
Ed Keating
Wow. So in terms of your view of the market or Greenleaf, you know, do you take on all comers? Or, you know, sort of looking at the suite of solutions, it's rather robust. So is it? Is it something where the larger market sizes and MSOs or big SSOs, are there ones that you focus on?
Brett Puffenbarger
So I will do that, but I so. Okay, I refuse to give away a trade secret here, but I will give a little bit away. So I bucket loosely off of three kind of factors, but then I'm going to explain how I use those factors in the system. So I bucket off of market maturity, size of operators, and then, well, those are kind of the two main factors, but when that plays into targeting by state, but groups of states, and then targeting sub by size, right? So I don't want to go too far into that, because I got some real funky lists, and I know you can go look at how they're built. Like, I like targeting that way, right? Like, I would rather think of operators from the way they operate. So, yeah, I think friends of mine, like Willie, Willie McKenzie, right? He's got a cannabis operators mastermind group, right? Like, they do this, like, hangout session, where they all talk about what's going on in from all different markets. So as much as we talk about that, I think there are also universal truths that come across markets and cross pollinate and all of those things and that right? I think this, this ability to come together and talk about the things and put them together in a fundamental way and help each other. And I've kind of lost where I was going, but you get where I'm going with that, right?
Ed Keating
Like so with, you know, different markets and different backgrounds, you know, in terms of Greenleaf, are you in all states that have cannabis, or you just....
Brett Puffenbarger
We also do all 50 states. So we can do all 50 states for like, hemp operators that are doing, we do have a few non cannabis like companies, like not affiliated at all. Those are usually happenstance. I think it's no secret there are lots of people who have a hand in cannabis businesses. Own a cannabis business or two, but they also own a real estate company or this thing or that thing. A lot of times we've picked up their other businesses, right, their laundry mats or whatever they are.
Ed Keating
How many? How many HRIS do people want to have, you know, one or right,
Brett Puffenbarger
You know what? Here's a really interesting one that goes back to the kind of managed services thread that we were on, right, like my why and all of this, what's been kind of enlightening, where, what's kind of blowing my mind is the amount of companies that have had to build band aided pieces of stuff, right? Like, there are, there are companies out there that are using half a dozen different payrolls across eight different things, and over here, doing this and that and the thing, and it's like, you guys could do it all, and I get why. It's not their fault. Like, I want to be very clear. Birth of cannabis has not been pretty, right? The birth of cannabis companies have not been pretty. It's been a very chaotic mess along the way. So they have built it kind of like putting LEGO sets together, right? They're like, Ah, those guys, we like them. They kind of do business like us. Let's let's merge, or let's build a holding company, and then let's add them right? Like it's been that way, so it makes sense that they're there. Now, I think the thing with all of this kind of stuff we've been talking about, like, what my path thing, kind of one thread of this is, I think we're at a new era in campus, right? Whether it's the academia front, like there are people graduating with bachelor's and master's in cannabis stuff, there are all of these things that are kind of signaling cannabis is growing up, right? Like we're entering a new phase where we are going to start looking more and more like real industries. And real industries have things like Greenleaf is offering things like green check offered, like, all of it, right? Like, so hook, line and sinkers. I think every cannabis company is fighting a really hard fight, and let the expert vendors that are experts, like the companies I've worked with, I'll get my personal endorsement to both, let them do the hard stuff for you, and then you can do all this stuff, like focus on working on the pieces of the business that you wanted to when you got into it, right? Like touching patients lives, or building the best of this, or the Danks this thing, or whatever it is, like the Why don't care
Ed Keating
or focusing on your customers, yeah, by outsourcing a lot of these features and functions that maybe you shouldn't build on your own or patchwork together, et cetera. So yeah, I think that's good advice. Brett, so I'm kind of curious about the challenges that the Greenleaf faces, just as a business like. We've all heard about the likely rescheduling of cannabis and what that might mean for 280 which essentially means cannabis tax laws get rewritten or changed. And you know, if you're touching as many parts of the business as a company like Greenleaf, I imagine that has implications. You know, maybe they're all positive, I don't know, but I would just imagine that, as a guy who used to work in regulatory publishing, that's a big deal. When stuff like that happens, it's all hands on deck for a long time, as we sort of figure stuff out. So pluses, minuses, what happens in terms of challenges and perhaps opportunities for Greenleaf.
Brett Puffenbarger
So I think it's mostly opportunities, right? So I think there are some others that people aren't considering, uh, recent changes in 401, K laws, some changes in medical, health care laws and coverages and things people have to carry. So actually a lot of companies that are now above thresholds requiring things. So there's actually a lot of really cool changes for us, already happening in expanded services in that way. So I think the tax piece right, the 280E going away part. One of the things that gives me hope is we have an awesome network of CPAs accountants, fractional CFOs, banking, folks, data folks. We have a lot of cool people that can help cannabis companies do that. We also have, you know, our payroll tax departments pretty, pretty stellar. We're looking forward to it, right? Basically, it removes one set of regulations and opens up another opportunity for us to expand our services in a very meaningful way. Doesn't change anything else for us really, right? It takes a couple of compliance steps out of the way, and lets us say, like, yeah, we can treat it a lot more like a normal business. Let's, let's grow faster, bigger, better, let's, let's offer you more things.
Ed Keating
Makes sense. Makes sense, absolutely. I mean, it'll really be interesting to see how it impacts businesses and sort of the choices and the decisions they'll make as a perhaps, repurpose capital to other things. But you know, it also brings up the question for me that I've been asking people on this podcast for a long time now, which is, has the industry hit bottom yet, and are we on our way back?
Brett Puffenbarger
I think that goes back to something we've already talked about a little bit. There is no industry. There's 39 of them. And I think different things happen to different people at different times. If you want the crystal ball view, I'm willing to go a little bit down the Chicken Little but there is hope path if you want to. So if Brett had to guess a magic wand, and he's going to say some crazy stuff. I think the future of cannabis looks like the milk industry. And I think nobody's willing to admit it yet. And what I mean by that is a central network of outsourced processors in economically viable regions for that sort of agriculture, right? So think Appalachia. Think the green try, you know, the Emerald Humboldt and all that. So I think there's different. So I think it's going to look at the milk industry. I think the places where it is economically viable, right, traditional producer, consumer economics, right? They're going to grow a vast majority. They will go to the centralized processing facilities, which is currently, as everyone knows, in cannabis, the most capital intensive, difficult and bottleneck piece of the industry, which is transformation into usable products, whether that is extraction or manufacturing, that's going to end up at centralized processing facilities, just like it does now, for milk, right? They use pasteurized facilities, just like that, right? And then it's going to get distributed, but grows a variety of brands through a variety of retailers, a la craft foods, largest seller of cheese in North America that they own, no farms. So I think that eventually becomes, you know, the how a bill becomes a law life cycle. Cannabis gets sold, manufactured and distributed, just like any other semi controlled substance. I hope on the flip side of that we could go doom and gloom and say, big farmer controls all of it. And you're going to get some, I don't know, whatever yucky, evil corporate Pfizer weed. And there's going to be some, like gorilla force of home growers, steady in the mountains somewhere. We could go either way.
Ed Keating
Yeah, and hard to know. I love the milk analogy. I not heard it described that way before, but there's a lot to that. And, you know, we already have people with delivery licenses. They're like the milkman from when I was a child. So, so maybe that'll make a make you continue a comeback, or be in areas where it's not available now.
Brett Puffenbarger
So I live in Virginia, and I love my weed delivery guy. Like, we have a very limited medical market, right? But, yeah, delivery from one of those licensed operators from time to time. And this dude is awesome. They text with emojis, like it's the old day. People. Woke up in like a, not the greatest car with, like my bag with my name on it, and like a black in yellow tote, like it's it was mind blowing compared to when I worked in cannabis retail in Florida, right, like, where our delivery vehicles are, like the unmarked white cars with up armoring and like an armored passenger guy and eight cameras and right, like wild!
Ed Keating
Amazing. So one last question I got, and I'm trying not to use the word industry here, so I'll see if I can figure out a better way. But I've been in a lot of conferences lately, and there's this discussion of anything versus cannabis. I think you've posted on it as well. And some people say, is it one industry or two? As one person said from the podium, I've heard her say this twice, we are simply the cannabinoid industry. Hard stop. What do you think Brett?Brett?
Brett Puffenbarger
I think there's truth to every angle in this, and I think there's some nuance here, if you want to, like, let's use, let's use fun business guide language, right? So if we're at 100,000 feet, like, we're way up there. We're all in this together, right? All of us are trying to sell a plant to people that will change their mind, right? In some way, whether it's staying high or to make them feel better or whatever, like we are all essentially in the larger, I don't know, whatever entheogen plant medicine world, you know, there's no secret, there's crossover with magic mushroom people, LSD people and, like, right, whatever, like. So we're all in that greater ecosystem. You could even, I think, argue from a if we should work together stance, we could hang out with the nutraceutical people a little more often. So, you know, 100,000 foot view, yeah, we're all in it together right, right? I think if you get all the way down to the very minuscule, like, point of detail, you see, like the scientists and real sticklers for regulations, get to know there is a very distinct set of legislature that makes it two different everything's right. One is super, ultra siloed, mega hard mode. The other one is unregulated, wild west of early California, early Maine, cannabis legalization days done at a national scale. I think there are a lot of really solid operators that have exploited the hemp market to do some really cool things, right? They are quality operations that will one day hopefully have cannabis licenses and whatever. There's also a lot of charlatans that sell bathtub gin washed, you know, acid washed, yucky stuff in gas stations. So I think there are distinctions. I think the problem is, is that no one's willing to come to the table and say, like, hey, maybe everybody has a place, right? So, like, my take is, is, I guess, a little controversial in that I think that the minor cannabinoids that are non intoxicating, please, nobody jump on the like intoxicating is a subjective word and blah DSM criteria stuff, I'm down to have that argument, but let's not Do it on the Air Force stuff. It'll be terrible. And it's really boring and dry, however. So you know, if it's intoxicating, I or if it requires acids, and I don't mean acid in the chemistry, since I understand acid is the relevant term. I mean, like hydrochloric acid, like, you know, palladium catalysts, like that sort of stuff. I think we need to bring that into the regulated markets wherever it is. And if you were, if it's existing in a state that doesn't have one, you have a regulatory hurdle in your hands that can force legislature from the bench to figure out what to do, right? Because they cannot make what was legal yesterday illegal in that way like they can. Obviously, there are many loopholes, but there's some legal fight here, and I think public sentiment they would lose in the end. So if you got deep enough pockets, and you know, whatever, but you get what I'm saying, right? So, yes, I know they're the same, different. I think we bring them regulated market. I think the non intoxicating stuff. Give it to me my mail, man, my wife gets CBN for sleep every night, and that doesn't need to be packaged like it's Fort Knox to get out, like if a kid drank the whole bottle the war. First thing they're gonna do is go, Mom, I'm sleepy, and they're done for a night, and you're cool, like, I'm not a doctor. That's not medical advice, not none of that. But you wanna say,
Ed Keating
Fair enough. Fair enough. Well, Brett, I can't thank you enough for joining us today and taking us on that journey from Bong to Boardroom and beyond, and really appreciate your insights and thoughts about everything, including cannabis media. So thank you so much, and I'll look forward to seeing you at an upcoming industry show before long.
Brett Puffenbarger
Thanks, man, thanks for having me. Absolutely you.
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