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September 19, 2023
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On this Cannacurio episode, Ed and Liesl Bernard of CannabizTeam discuss her start as a CPA and how she got her initial start in Recruiting, the current state of hiring within the industry, how they are approaching the market here in the US and beyond, and so much more!
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Ed Keating
Welcome to the Cannacurio Podcast powered by Cannabiz Media. I'm your host, Ed Keating, and on today's show, we're joined by Liesl Bernard CEO of CannabizTeam.
Liesl Bernard
Thank you so much for having me.
Ed Keating
Welcome Liesl.
Liesl Bernard
Thank you. Great to be here.
Ed Keating
So, we both share a similar name with “cannabiz” in our name and we felt it was high time to get the two of us together to learn a little bit more about what, what you all do. So I'd like to start with your background and, and why did you found CannabizTeam?
Liesl Bernard
Gosh, it's a, it's a long story and it seems like a long time ago now, but it's only about seven years ago that this all happened. I started my career as a CPA actually working for KPMG. And after spending some time in public accounting, I went to Robert Half, which is a big global staffing firm and said, “hey, I want another job in accounting” and they they said “Sure we can help you with that. But, you know, by the way, you know, there's very few CPAs that really have a personality, et cetera, why don't you consider doing recruiting?” And, I really didn't enjoy accounting and that sounded a lot more fun. And at the ripe age of 26 or something like that, I jumped over and became a recruiter, working very much in the accounting and finance space, recruiting CFOs, et cetera and then my scope sort of broaden after that, but I just loved it. So I ended up spending 20 years with Robert Half in various different roles and helped start their operation in Australia, worked in Europe a bit, and then managed all their operations in Hawaii for nine years prior to coming back to California. And when I came back to California, they asked me to run executive search on the West coast. It was around 2015, 2016. And a cannabis company approached me and asked me to do a big CFO and CEO search for them, and went to Robert half was super excited about the opportunity to work with this company. And they said, no, you can't work in cannabis because we're a federally I mean, we're a publicly traded company and cannabis, you know, does not fall into the scope of the businesses that we work with. So, I immediately saw the business opportunity there. I always had an entrepreneurial sort of flair, want to have, you know, do something entrepreneurial, and I said this is my time. So I ended up leaving selling everything I had to start this business. And here we are seven years later.
Ed Keating
Wow. Wow, that's a great, that's a great story. Now, in, in terms of the marketplace, you know, we started our company around the same time, about 2015 and started hiring people more in 2016. Back then, it used to be quote unquote the “green rush”, you know, just putting out, hey, we have jobs in cannabis and cannabis and be a researcher. We got overwhelmed with people wanting to come in. How has that changed? Because in the industry has matured and it's a tougher industry now, is it still a green rush or people still just want to get in because it's cannabis or is it a more nuanced entrance for people, you know, wanting to, to join our industry?
Liesl Bernard
You know, I think there's still a lot of excitement about the cannabis industry. I remember, you know, 2015-16, we almost had to beg people to take a chance to come work in cannabis and you know, assure them that they're not gonna get arrested and go to jail or lose their certification, you know, their license, their CPA license, et cetera. And you know, over the last few years has become the sexy industry, you know, we get so many people calling saying we want to work in cannabis and I think what makes cannabis different is that people come to this industry with heart, right? A lot of people have a story related to a family member or themselves or something that cannabis really helped heal someone in some shape or form. And so I think a lot of people love this industry for that reason. But I also think, still think that this industry, even though it's going through a little bit of ups and downs right now, there's still a ton of opportunity and, and I think people see it as an opportunity to have a career change and to really make a difference in a in a field that they're very passionate about. So yeah, still a lot of excitement about the industry.
Ed Keating
Yeah, I agree with your point about passion and heart, because a lot of people, you know, we see it in just the, the cover letters that they send and they often tell that story, you know, of a relative, family friend or something like that and that does make the industry more important to them than just quote unquote “a job”.
Liesl Bernard
Exactly.
Ed Keating
Now one of the other things that our, our, our two company shares. We both rely on data, and I was intrigued to learn that you've been publishing your cannabis industry salary guide for a while now. And you know, how many years has it been coming out?
Liesl Bernard
It will be our fifth year.
Ed Keating
Yeah. Well, congratulations. That's a, we just finished our fifth year for one of our reports, and when you have that many versions of a report, it really starts to have a presence in the industry. You know, we find that people are waiting, you know, like, when's the next one coming out? And I imagine you probably run into that as well.
Liesl Bernard
Yeah, we, yeah, we are. And I think a lot of people use it because the industry is still quite fragmented. A lot of, a lot of companies use our salary guide to sort of see if they're within the range to attract the right talent. And often people use our salary guide too to negotiate their salaries when they, when they are in cannabis and, you know, maybe switching from one company to another. So, I hope that it's useful for the industry. That's the reason we put it out is to have some sort of resource to go to for, for that type of information.
Ed Keating
Yeah. Well, benchmarks are always great and I was hoping you could tell us, you know, a little bit more about, you know, some of the insights that, that you've gained. Like how many new cannabis jobs are you predicting to happen over the coming year?
Liesl Bernard
You know, I think the outlook is for the next three years that at least another 200,000 jobs are being created in the industry and that's, you know, mainly on the states that are just going legal now - Maryland, Missouri, you know, Minnesota and, you know, the tri-state area is predicted to alone, you know, generate close to 100,000 jobs as well. So, that's really exciting, you know, that there's still so much growth. I know the rest of the industry is going, you know, experiencing a few ups and downs. But, you know, just think about the newer states that are legalizing or going adult use, all of those states are still hiring in all the verticals.
Ed Keating
Now, are you seeing anything in terms of states where it might be shrinking or exits? Like we know in Oklahoma, there's a license moratorium and although it went into effect the end of last August, it's really in this last quarter that has finally happened, you know, we track new licenses in the state and the number of new stores went from 300 licenses issued in January to one in June. So I imagine there's some shrinkage there. Is that something that, you know, you, you think you'll be reporting on in, in, in coming years in terms of where it, the industry might not go or maybe you already cover that.
Liesl Bernard
Now, you know, I think the data will probably show, you know, as we put the data together for our next salary guide that there's definitely gonna be some, a little bit of an attrition in the market, but I don't think it's significant. You know, we're, we're still, because there's so many jobs that are still being created in the newer states. I think from a job perspective, there's not gonna be that much, you know, my guess and, you know, nobody's really tracking this information because, you know, cannabis jobs are not being tracked by the Department of Labor. You know, so I think it's roughly around 10% but that's a correction that needs to happen. I think in the market as well, I think some states issued way too many licenses. Right.
Ed Keating
Yes. Yeah. And we, we, we certainly see that and, the supply and demand issues, you know, create these races to the bottom and then the established incumbents say please no more licenses stop and, sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn’t. So it definitely puts up.
Liesl Bernard
Yeah.
Ed Keating
Yeah, but definitely put some strain on, on the system now, in terms of, you know, with all that background, how is the hiring mix evolved? I think in my reviewing of your report, you talked about direct hire, on demand temp, executive search outplacement. You know, how does that, how does that change over time? Because, you know, you were early into the space on the recruiting side and, you know, you've been in it now for a while. So, how does that mix evolve?
Liesl Bernard
Yeah, it's definitely evolved and especially in the last year when there was a little bit of economic uncertainty. I think a lot of clients are looking to more of a mixed staffing model, or a hybrid staffing model where they use hourly workers, maybe consultants or project workers. And then fractional executives, is sort of a new thing that we're seeing emerging in the market, where companies use executives on a fractional basis, meaning they get this executive in one or two days a week consistently, or indefinitely, but they don't have the expense of carrying an executive for on a full-time salary. So that fractional executive would, might work for two or three other companies on a, you know, fractional or a part-time basis. And so that's one way of staffing, still getting the expertise that you need, but, you know, don't need to carry a $200/$300,000 salary on your books, but you, you know, you have access to that kind of expertise. So that's something we're seeing evolving. And then obviously direct hire and executive search search is still happening. You know, companies still need, you know, full time employees in order to run to run the ship, so to speak. But hybrid staffing, flexible staffing, I think is the new way to go and it's very much more economical, right? Because you don't have to carry that full, salary or payroll load and you can scale up or down as your needs change as a company as well.
Ed Keating
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. I mean, that my, my sense of what you said is, you know, rent if you don't need to buy and this way you can really manage your balance sheet or income statement way, way better. And, you know, given the challenges the industry faces, I guess it's just a very logical approach to managing the the, the, the labor part of your of your business.
Liesl Bernard
Yeah, pay for what you need instead of, you know, carrying the overhead full time. So yeah, and that's, that's really exciting. So we're seeing really seeing our hourly or temp business, you know, grow, especially now during the downturn and there's many more companies that are looking for fractional executives and have a marketing person just part-time but consistently, you know, for a long period of time, or a CFO or that type of executive that you don't necessarily need someone, you know, 40 hours a week.
Ed Keating
Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. Now, general direction of salaries are, are they staying flat? Are they going up? Or, you know, is it depending on the sector that, that the people working on in, in terms of whether they're moving up or down?
Liesl Bernard
You know, I think companies are becoming a little bit more conservative, you know, especially, you know, I think because everyone's trying to conserve cash in the cannabis industry. I think access to capital is just very, very difficult right now. And so everyone's looking at where we, they can save a bit of money. So I think we're actually seeing a bit of a correction on, you know, on salaries as well or maybe even, you know, at least steady. But companies are really, you know, not just throwing money at people anymore like they did two or three years ago in order to attract the right talent. And I think the market is correcting in that sense. But, you know, we're still seeing big salaries, we're still placing people, you know, in the, the few hundreds, you know, as far as salaries are concerned. So companies are still willing to pay for great talent, but probably just a little bit more conservative in general.
Ed Keating
And one thought that just occurred to me at least is, is there a sector differentiation because, you know, the cannabis space is sometimes referred to by the, the plants or the chemicals in it. So we have cannabis, CBD, hemp, which, you know, is derived from, from, the CBD is derived from hemp. Like do those groups move together apart? Do you get many hires in the hemp space?
Liesl Bernard
We've had a few more over the last couple of years, but I mean, I think that part of the industry is still relatively small compared to, you know, pure cannabis companies. And that's sort of where we're focusing a lot of our staffing for. So I don't think it's as big, you know, as the, the cannabis industry and, and, you know, they, they have access to other resources, right. So, they typically use, you know, other recruiting firms or, or maybe even, you know, other banking et cetera. So it's, it's not as quite as limiting, I think as the cannabis industry is right now.
Ed Keating
Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. Now, going down a level into the different activities that businesses get licensed for and we see cultivation, manufacturing, retailer/dispensing and sort of the big three are any of those areas more in demand, like, you know, is there a lot of interest in, you know, chief cultivation officers or people who are retail wizards? Like where's the, the big interest among, you know, those three? And, or how does it differ among them?
Liesl Bernard
You know, it almost varies state by state, you know, and depending on where a state is on the life cycle of, you know, getting set up, so to speak. So some of the newer states like Maryland right now, we're seeing a huge demand for cultivators, and you know, in return also manufacturing and retail, so that state is just getting set up to respond to the adult use demand that they just got. So, and if you think about it, every state still has to operate independently. So they have to cultivate, extract, manufacture and you know, retail products from, from within that state products can still not be taken across borders. So, there's sort of a less economies of scale still.
Ed Keating
Right.
Liesl Bernard
And you know, so we're still seeing a really steady demand, probably less so for non revenue producing positions like companies are cutting, maybe marketing and you know, some, some sales roles, et cetera. So where there's, you know, if they want to get product on the shelf, but all the fluffy roles are sort of going away, you know, as companies are calling back a little bit and adjusting to the market.
Ed Keating
Yeah, it makes me think back to 2019 as we're heading into the fall, I was going to a couple of conferences and starting to hear a lot about, you know, operational excellence and managing to profitability and then C*VID hit and then, oh, it didn't matter, government money, people are buying lots of cannabis and you sort of got this this false hope that the industry was in a different place and now it is settled back with a vengeance and it's way more about being profitable. And, you know, as you said, you know, managing the cash flow.
Liesl Bernard
So just another change that the cannabis industry have to deal with. Right?
Ed Keating
Right, exactly. Only if they can make 280E go away! Now, have you seen any other changes during the cannabis bear market? I know when I've gone to conferences over the last six months, people joke about their main job is not selling their product or software, it’s collections. Like, you know, what trends have you seen in terms of, you know, what's going on in the market that maybe you didn't see a year ago.
Liesl Bernard
Yeah, definitely, you know, I can, you know, cash is very tight for a lot of companies right now and I think everyone is trying to manage their cash flow. You know, God, let's hope Safe Banking passes and we see some changes, so cannabis companies have easier access to, to working capital, right? I think it's, it's tight for everyone right now. So definitely collections is a little bit harder, and I think you have to shout a little bit louder in order to get paid these days. So yeah, but that's, you know, that's the ebb and flow of every market and every industry. So it's just we just have to get through this tough time and hopefully we see change in the industry so that you know, that cash flow is not such a huge issue anymore and we don't have to pay as many taxes as much tax, you know, 280E…
Ed Keating
Exactly. Now, one of the questions I always like to ask in the podcast is trying to get an understanding of how people define their markets. And you know some folks have geographical accounts, somebody has the Northeast, somebody has the Midwest, others do named accounts where, you know, the MSOs are split up. I was curious in, in a business like yours, which I imagine requires a lot of relationship building. How do you manage your sales team and marketing team? And, and how do you approach the market here in the US and beyond?
Liesl Bernard
Yeah. Well, we have two, you know, very distinct business lines. One is our temporary services. So we work with a lot of the MSOs and provide people on you know, in cultivation trimmers and post harvest technicians, et cetera on a large scale on an hourly basis. And then manufacturing, that's a big area for us as well. So, you know, we work with a lot of the MSOs on the manufacturing side, packaging, et cetera, high volume people at that level. And then our executive search team, do contingency placements, contingency fee placements as well as executive placements on and retain search. So they have a very different focus. And we actually are really you know, starting to see more work internationally as well. I recently met with some clients in Thailand and we've got some placements that have, that are happening in Thailand when, you know, taking people from the US and taking them to Thailand where they can help those companies ramp up fast and, you know, as legalization evolves in Thailand, you know, they're bringing expertise over there. We're working in Puerto Rico. We've placed some people in Switzerland, so the world is opening up and very often looking to the US for talent. So that's really exciting that we're starting to do more international work. But we work the whole US. We place talent in all states both on an hourly basis for temporary workers and then direct hired placement. And we're fortunate enough that, you know, a lot of the MSOs work with us and, you know, they're in so many states. So we have the ability to help them in, in all of those states.
Ed Keating
That's great. That's great. Well, now I, I have to ask a self-serving question. So how, how does a team like yours utilize Cannabiz Media to help you in those go to market efforts?
Liesl Bernard
We love you guys. And we love your database. I think we were one of your first clients back in 2017, maybe? I can't remember when we first signed up. So it's been extremely helpful for us to be able to look at who's, who got licenses and you know, and what states et cetera. But also I think the information that you guys are continually adding to your database is really helpful. I think you're mentioning last time we spoke that you're also now adding sort of accounting information about companies as well, their financial status, et cetera. So, and especially in a market like this, I feel like that information is so helpful. And yeah, I really think it's, it's a real asset to the whole industry to have your database. So thank you for all the work that you guys have done to put that together.
Ed Keating.
Absolutely. Well, thank you and go, I want to go back to the international point a bit. You know, I'm wondering, you know, in general, would you say that firms like yours are a leading indicator of where the industry is going? Just because, you know, we have leading and lagging, like we always joke that if a state says, “oh, we're gonna enact a program”, we sit back and wait for 18 months for the licenses to pop out. We’re (Cannabiz Media) a lagging indicator. But if you're having to go and find people to work in Switzerland and Thailand and elsewhere, that's probably one of the earliest things that people do, right? Like we need talent to help us figure this out. So maybe I'm answering my question. But are you a leading indicator in where an industry is going?
Liesl Bernard
I think so. I think so, you know, obviously no company can exist or no industry can exist without people. So if we're starting to see people being sort of redistributed into different parts of the world, that's probably an indicator, right, that the market is starting to evolve there. So that, you know, it just gets me so excited because, you know, I've been able to, you know, help companies internationally find the right talent, you know, has been a big dream of mine. And you know, I have, I'm, I feel like I'm, I'm a global citizen - I’ve lived in four different countries - and to me, the opportunity to work and globally is, is very exciting and, but also for the plan to be accessible, you know, worldwide and people have access to, to cannabis, to me that's just it's such a gift to the world. So I'm really excited to see that evolving.
Ed Keating
Well, well, I would say the industry is lucky to have you in the fact that you already have that international focus. So you know what that looks like? It's not your first rodeo if you will in terms of seeing how industries cross borders. I remember when I worked in the software publishing compliance industry, there was a well revered speaker who talked about companies don't go international, “so to speak”. He said they have competencies that allow them to work across borders and move people, and processes, and other things. That's how they're successful. And it always stuck with me that there are certain skills that you need to have. And, you know, obviously, you know, your company has it through you. And the fact that we're seeing growth internationally is probably a good sign and that's what it leads to my next question we get toward the end is, you know, has the industry hit bottom yet? I mean, do you think we're gonna, you know, start going back up the other side or are we in a really long, we have no idea how long it is. You know, I think if we are, you know, staffing is an indicator of sort of where the industry is and where the economy is. I think we have because we're, we're seeing a huge, or not a huge, but a very, you know, steady uptake in hiring, over the last month or so, you know, and that's not something we saw the previous three months. So just this month alone, we are, you know, our temp, services, you know, almost doubled again. And, you know, that on a direct hire basis, we've got many more job, jobs open, you know, obviously the newer states are expanding, a lot of them are in those states. But, that's exciting that, you know, you know, even nationally we're seeing a little bit of an uptake in hiring. So I'm hoping that we, we've hit rock bottom and it's, it's going back up. But, and I'm really excited, you know, just go back to your point on international. I would love to see the MSOs starting, you know, get to that place where they have enough cash, because I think that all, a lot of them have dreams of going international and going into Europe and other places in the world. And, you know, that'll be really exciting when these companies are in a better position financially and maybe have some of the limitations of 280E you know, access to better capital, you know, and then they can expand. So I'm really, I'm really hopeful that that will happen soon and I'd love to be part of that. you know, so…
Ed Keating
well, and I think they've probably learned from the last time they tried that when I, I it seemed to me that it was a bit more of a land grab or, hey, we're gonna make a bunch of oil and we'll ship it overseas and that'll be international. And I don't think that really necessarily thought through what that whole process was gonna be like and what is it like to enter another country and, you know, all those kind of issues. So I think everybody's eyes are more wide open than they were back in what, (20)18/19/20 when I think it was, more froth and less substance, but that's just from where, where I sit.
Liesl Bernard
So, I think it's gonna make companies smarter to have gone through this little bit of a dip over the last few months, you know. So, I totally agree with you. It's gonna be better, better run organizations going forward.
Ed Keating
Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. Well, as my wrap up question, are there any trends that, you know, we should be monitoring or things happening or new things that CannabizTeam is working on that you know, we're gonna hear about, over the coming months?
Liesl Bernard
I just want to say that, you know, it's not all doom and gloom out there. I know it's, it's very tough on the industry right now, but, you know, we're seeing, we're seeing a lot of growth still and I think there's a ton of opportunity internationally. So, you know, let's get through this these next few months. And I think from a staffing perspective, I think the, the flexible staffing is here to stay and I think companies are gonna understand that how valuable that is to be able to scale up and down and to have fractional executives work, especially in the smaller to medium sized companies that's such a much more economical way to staff than to hire, you know, a whole team of executives, on a full-time basis. So I really think that, that trend that's coming out of this, economic, correction is gonna be here to stay as well.
Ed Keating
Yeah, I think that makes all sense. I mean, it's, it, to me it, it ties back a little bit to the 280E, where all these companies are having to pay essentially inflated costs. So, if there are ways to trim it out to get sort of a just in time or just what I need, it's a reaction to the compliance, challenge they face financially. And I'm sure you can give them good advice. You know, being that you started as a, you know, an accounting person with a personality, you get to see it from a lot of different angles. So Liesl, thanks so much for joining us today.
Liesl Bernard
It was great. It was a pleasure being here. Thank you so much for having me.
Ed Keating
I appreciate it. I'm your host, Ed Keating and stay tuned for more updates from the data vault.
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