Tecogen Vice President of Business Development Steve LaFaille joins Ed Keating to talk about how his company's products help cannabis and hemp cultivators efficiently meet their engery needs as well as how his team uses the Cannabiz Media database to support their business development initiatives.

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Cannacurio Podcast Episode 39 Transcript

Ed Keating:

This is a Cannacurio Podcast by Cannabiz Media, your source for cannabis and hemp license news directly from the Data Vault. Welcome to the Cannacurio Podcast powered by Cannabiz Media. I'm your host Ed Keating. Today, we're joined by Steve LaFaille of Tecogen. So Steve, welcome to the podcast.

Steve LaFaille:

A great to be with you, Ed.

Ed Keating:

Excellent. So in doing some research on your company, I see that Tecogen's has been around for four decades. That's quite some time. Could you give us a little bit of the backstory, how did they start out and how did they get where they are today?

Steve LaFaille:

Sure. Yeah. Yeah. We're coming up on our 40th anniversary, I think 1982 is the official start date of Tecogen.

Ed Keating:

Wow.

Steve LaFaille:

And it's funny if you look over time, 40 years is a long time, but the central electric grid really hasn't gotten that much more efficient and that much cleaner, during that time. So our value proposition largely hasn't changed and if anything, electricity from the grid has gotten more expensive. So, the value proposition, it's just gotten better for us over time and for our customers.

Steve LaFaille:

But our roots are based at the company called Thermo Electron, who's now part of a much larger company, Thermo Fisher Scientific, and that's where we got started. And that company was very successful and Tecogen's products are one of the first products that they commercialize. So, some neat history there. We're a separate company now, publicly traded on the OTC Stock Exchange. But yeah, that's a long history there, of technology development and certainly staying power in the industry. I'd like to think we'd become a household name, kin to Kleenex, so to speak.

Ed Keating:

Yeah.

Steve LaFaille:

So that's all about Tecogen, when it comes to onsite CHP and power generation.

Ed Keating:

And what is CHB stand for, just in case some of our listeners don't know?

Steve LaFaille:

Sure. So, Combined Heat and Power is the acronym definition there. And other terms people use, cogeneration is a synonym. So, if you hear that term, cogeneration, there're different terminologies that have been in vogue at different times. CHP seems to be the latest invoked a term for it, but you're essentially generating all or a portion of your power onsite at the facility, instead of buying it from the central electric grid.

Ed Keating:

Sure.

Steve LaFaille:

And that concept is really based in and there's economic justification for doing so. There's greenhouse gas savings when you do that, due to the higher efficiency of onsite generation, and so on. So that's why onsite energy production makes sense.

Ed Keating:

Got it.

Steve LaFaille:

For all industries, for a lot of industries anyway, cannabis just being one of them.

Ed Keating:

Yeah. Well, let's poke into that a bit, because I'm going to bet that in 1982, you guys were not positioning yourself outside of greenhouses and helping people grow cannabis? So, back then when you're part of the other company, what were the industries that benefited from, what has become the Tecogen solution?

Steve LaFaille:

Sure. Yeah. So over time we've served a lot of large institutional customers, a lot of healthcare, hospitals-

Ed Keating:

All right.

Steve LaFaille:

... are a large part of our business, universities, large multifamily housing, correctional facilities, generally, any facility manufacturing. Not a great example, but people that need large amounts of energy, heating, cooling, and power, and different combinations of those, will steer you to different types of systems we make. And of course, cannabis is such a large user of energy. It's such an energy-intensive process that we fell into that industry a few years back and realizing that, "Hey, our products are really a great fit here and for all the same reasons that they are in these other industries." But in addition to those reasons, there's new or different drivers that we're seeing in cannabis that we haven't really seen in those other industries. So, it's almost the most compelling application for our systems that we've yet to see. So, that's been really interesting for us.

Ed Keating:

So could you illuminate a little bit on those drivers? I mean, I imagine they probably have things like CO2, there's no other power around or other things, but help us understand what are some of those unique cannabis industry drivers?

Steve LaFaille:

Sure. Yeah. So maybe good to start with the normal drivers, which still exist. Mostly what people are looking for our technology for, is operational cost savings.

Ed Keating:

Yep.

Steve LaFaille:

So they're looking to get a lower utility spend on their facility and most people understand there's also a greenhouse gas benefit that comes along with that and people like to get that as well, as a side benefit. So, that's certainly important to cannabis growers, but we also are seeing the electric capacity issue come up a lot. And that being, someone doesn't have enough electric power available to them at the facility they've chosen, it's either not available at all, in some cases.

Ed Keating:

Wow.

Steve LaFaille:

Or they can't get it in a reasonable timeframe. And obviously, time is money in this business, so the longer you take to get opened up, the potential to make less profit as the prices start to drop when supply catches up with demand. So people are very sensitive to that. So it's the timing of getting the power they need. Sometimes they can't get all of it they need. So they were having to maybe sacrifice canopy to fit in with their available electric service.

Ed Keating:

Right.

Steve LaFaille:

So we're able to come in and say, "Hey, look, not only do we provide all these other benefits that are going to be helpful to your business and your profitability, but we can also help you get growing faster, maybe avoid millions and millions of dollars of upgrades." Sometimes these customers are having to actually fund some utility upgrades, maybe a substation upgrade, and those are big costs that you can avoid. And by avoiding those costs, you're also helping get your utility bills lower. So it really is a win-win. And we've seen a little bit of that in other industries, sometimes a hospital would expand and they would be short electric service. But it was pretty few and far between that, that became a driver in other industries, but cannabis, it seems like almost every other customer, we've contributed to helping alleviate those concerns.

Ed Keating:

Well, yeah, I'm sure. I'm playing out the sales call in my head. Like, "So Ed, what gating factors do you have?" "Oh, power." "Well, we can solve that." "Really?" Off you go, because if you can remove such a big barrier that really, truly holds down production, profitability, revenue, expansion, that's a real great value prop to have and it's one that people can understand. I don't imagine you have to do a lot of explaining because they get it or they're suffering from it, almost right out of the gate, I would think?

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah, absolutely. We started getting phone calls several years ago from folks and as THP or co-generation salespeople were so trained to talk about the utility cost savings in it, the cost savings. And then we were getting people saying, "No, that's great and that's a side benefit. My first goal is to get my facility open and solve my electric capacity constraint." And we were just astonished by how often this kept coming up and continues to come up.

Ed Keating:

Wow. Go on.

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah. I was going to say, one thing we were scratching our heads about was, why do we see so many people finding themselves in this position of not having enough electric capacity and why aren't they doing their due diligence beforehand? And I think as I've come to realize, it's not always that simple. You get into this chicken and egg scenario where you need to get your building selected and then you need to do all this engineering and spend a lot of money before you can even get the utility, all the information they need. Because they may not tell you what's available to you without a really detailed engineering analysis that you can present to them. So you get into this really tricky scenario and I think that's how people end up in that position.

Ed Keating:

Yeah. So I want to go back to the industry piece because this often happens or we see this. Because the way Cannabiz Media looks at the market is, we see companies that are canna- serious, they only work in the cannabis industry. And then those that at one point were canna-curious. They're like, "Hey, we have a product that might work in the cannabis industry." So, you're in the situation where the cannabis industry reached out to you and said, "Hey, Tecogen, you could help us out." I'm curious though, once that happened, what was that discussion like internally, where suddenly you have these traditional industries, institutional healthcare, hospitality, multifamily, and you're like, "We're going to do cannabis now." Was that something that was just a normal extension of your other agricultural efforts? Or was it something that was a harder, curious sell inside the company?

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah, that's a great question because we've certainly seen a lot of traditional companies that existed long before cannabis became legalized, hesitant. Right?

Ed Keating:

Yeah.

Steve LaFaille:

And we definitely, that wasn't the case for us. We jumped in feet first without hesitation. And I think that really helped us get moving and I wish we would have done it even a little sooner. We were maybe a year or two later to the party than we could have been, we missed the Colorado boat there. But we didn't hesitate once we started realizing how good of a fit we were. We jumped in feet first and we saw a lot of people that offered similar things, maybe not, but people that made more traditional HVAC equipment, some of the bigger companies were still hesitant for several years after we started really doing work in this space and now they're starting to just come around. But I think that really hurt people, it was off-putting for customers if you had that type of hesitation.

Ed Keating:

Yeah, certainly.

Steve LaFaille:

We accepted them with open arms and it's done really well for us.

Ed Keating:

That's great. That's great. Now, going back to that example you were talking about, the planning aspect of this whole situation, for let's say, growers. So, I'd recently seen a headline where a facility was trying to get there or trying to get the facility up and running. And the county had made an investment on trying to upgrade the electric at a park someplace to attract businesses. But I guess when the cultivator got there, they found out that there just wasn't enough power to meet their needs, right from the get-go. So, does Tecogen run into potential customers with these kinds of challenges, where suddenly, they find themselves in a place where like, "Yeah, we really can't get all the power that we need here."

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah, absolutely. That comes up a lot. And again, we're able to go in there, we're able to offer a solution that is in most cases, significantly less costly than what the upgrade would have cost them. So it's better from that standpoint. And also, it's generally, much faster.

Ed Keating:

Oh, right.

Steve LaFaille:

Because even if you decide, "Hey, I'm going to pony up and pay the electric utility to upgrade." It might take them two years to get you what you need. Right? And that's not an exaggeration.

Ed Keating:

Wow.

Steve LaFaille:

It's usually measured in six months to a year. That's the measurement we're talking about, how long this stuff takes. And in this industry, a lot can change, if you open up a year later. Potentially, it could take you a lot longer to recoup your investment.

Ed Keating:

Well, and if you have a state license that has a time clock on it, you need to be operational within 12 months or whatever it is. I mean, we're seeing that still happening in certain states that are trying to juice their licensing. And if you don't meet that timeframe, you are in jeopardy. I think Missouri, just said they were going to yank 30 licenses, although we're not sure if that's going to happen. And in a similar vein, New York is like, "Yeah, we're going to issue licenses." But meanwhile, the tribes are like, "Yeah, you do that. We're going to issue ours right now." And then they're going to be cranking out licenses in a couple of weeks. Whereas, New York is probably 12 months away.

Steve LaFaille:

Right.

Ed Keating:

So, the time is money point that you've consistently made, is definitely an issue of, you don't want to wait.

Steve LaFaille:

Absolutely. And your other alternative is terrible. You've got to go back to your investors and say, "Look, we've got to reduce our canopy by 40% to fit into our available electric." And that doesn't jive with the proformer that they're representing. Right?

Ed Keating:

No, don't want to be at that board meeting. That's never fun.

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah, exactly. Hopefully they find us. They know about us or can find us and we can get to the table and show them how we can help solve their problem in what's most likely, a much more palatable manner. And plus going forward beyond that problem, you're going to have lower utility costs, which is just going to help you be a more competitive business. When competition heats up, and there's downward price pressure. You're going to be in a better position to keep being profitable.

Ed Keating:

So, Steve, this might be outside of the realm of Tecogen, but does anybody help these municipalities and folks who are trying to get ready for cannabis businesses, to help them understand what the power needs really are? Because it's not an unknown thing, at least for those of us who've been in the industry for a while, yeah, this is a big issue. But is anybody helping those people understand? Or is it the poor license holders who are like, "Yeah, you need to triple that." Or whatever the right multiplier is.

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah. I think there's some rules of thumb, but from what I found, the utility really wants a pretty detailed, what they call, load letter, which is, "This is how much power we need, exactly." And to get to that, you generally have to have a consulting engineer on board and you need to have spent some money to get to that point. And I think a lot of people have a building and maybe there's a lot of other great reasons they wanted to use that space and then sometimes electric concerns come later.

Steve LaFaille:

But I think there's definitely a certain type of consulting engineer out there that gets involved earlier in the process with owners that will help them look at buildings, to assess them before they even make a commitment and look at what service is available. If they have to do any due diligence with the local utilities, they can help do that, they understand that process. So, I've seen that be really helpful for an owner to have a consulting engineer that gets involved early in the process and helps them really identify, "Is it really a good building or location from a utilities standpoint, power, water, gas, all those things that you need to really operate such an energy-intense facility.

Ed Keating:

Okay. Decades ago I worked in Manhattan and we happen to be in a building that was one of the first places that Google took over, was the old Port Authority Bus Terminal or something like that. It was a giant building and the level of internet that they brought in was just amazing. And I think we got lucky in that it had beneficial externalities for us. But I do know that I think people then wanted to choose that building because it was really well set up, in terms of that particular piece of infrastructure.

Ed Keating:

So I think you're right, that people have to put power higher up on their checklist. So, we've talked about a couple things. I'd like to understand more about the benefits and what matters most because there can definitely be an ROI being more cost-effective. There's the efficiency, there's a cleanliness of power. Are there also taxation benefits for a cannabis business, where this can impact maybe what they can write-off or not write-off?

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah, sure. So definitely would like to address all of that because as I mentioned, I think about, let's say 50% of our customers in this space, they haven't necessarily had an electric capacity constraint. So, they did choose to do this for all those other reasons. So the ROI, you're somewhere, typically, say, two to five-year range for these types of products. And we make two distinct types of systems. We make a system that can generate electricity for your building and give you free heat that can be used to do dehumidification. We also make another product that the prime mover, the natural gas engine is directly connected to a refrigeration compressor. So we're actually making the cooling for the building and then giving them free hot water for dehumidification.

Steve LaFaille:

So those two types of products, sometimes they're used, either or, depending on the scenario. Sometimes they're used in conjunction with one another. But all those products we make, generally are going to fall into that two to five-year ROI range. And that's assuming we didn't solve an electric capacity problem. If we solved an electric capacity problem, there's no quote, unquote, payback period because chances are, this was less than what your alternative was. So that's sort of the rough ROI. And certain states have incentive programs for energy efficiency, and that can dramatically reduce that period to even lower, which that's a pretty reasonable period to start with. So if you get incentives great, if you don't, still makes a lot of sense.

Steve LaFaille:

From a tax standpoint, there are some benefits. So combined heat and power systems do qualify for a couple of federal tax benefits. There's a specific ITC investment tax credit for CHP systems to 10% ITC. And that's applied generally to the system. So beyond our equipment, anything that's involved in helping get the power and cooling and heating to the building. So that can be very beneficial. Insert disclaimer here, please consult your tax attorney. But that's one big benefit. There's also accelerated depreciation that comes into play. So that can be something that can be beneficial to people. I think most of our customers have taken advantage of these benefits.

Steve LaFaille:

Some of them, I don't know for sure, but I suspect they have this generally, multiple business entities, that they're structured to enable themselves to take business deductions and credits and so on. So that's definitely something that people are considering when they make this decision. The cleanliness aspect, I think, is becoming more important to people. Cannabis has sort of gotten a bad rap for being energy intense.

Ed Keating:

Right.

Steve LaFaille:

Which it is inherently, but there's a lot of other industries that use a lot of energy. No one really talks about how much energy it takes to make a can of beer, but I'm sure it takes quite a bit.

Ed Keating:

Or Bitcoin.

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah, exactly. So they have that spotlight on them and they want to look at ways to alleviate that concern for their customers and let the customers know that they're being environmentally conscious. So the fact that we're offering, it's roughly about a 50% carbon reduction versus doing things traditionally from the grid. So that's becoming more and more important to people and we're seeing it become a bigger part of the decision-making process. So that's been great because it's great to do something that's good for your wallet, but you don't want to necessarily be doing that at the expense of the environment. And that's definitely not the case with CHP, you're getting two benefits.

Ed Keating:

Yeah, indeed, indeed. That's great. I mean, it seems that there's multiple reasons why people go down this pathway. So what I'd like to do now is try and get a deeper understanding of your market and how you approach it? So just thinking through in my head, I'm assuming that your primary focus is indoor grows only, or primarily? Because would the same benefit apply if somebody had outdoor or a mix?

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah. So it's been primarily indoor, warehouse-type grows, then a couple of greenhouse projects. But generally, it wouldn't be outdoor because you need to have a controlled environment.

Ed Keating:

Yeah, right, right.

Steve LaFaille:

So controlled environment agriculture is what we're targeting and greenhouse grows are in a completely different category because they come in all shapes and sizes. There's some that have very minimal HVAC, there're just maybe some fans and they don't really control the environment perfectly or closely. And then there's really sophisticated greenhouses that are almost completely sealed, have really sophisticated HVAC units.

Ed Keating:

Are robotically run. No people inside it.

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah. So if you're trying to control your temperature and humidity perfectly, that's the facility that we're going to be part of because you'll need mechanical cooling equipment, you'll need sophisticated HVAC systems. So that's where we would play. And that's obviously, always the case for an indoor grow. So, that's mainly where we focus, but I think as we see the industry, more and more people are assessing greenhouses, we're seeing some hybrid, where some people can have an indoor grow, completely indoor. Maybe they're going to make their perfect flower in there and they're going to have a greenhouse or maybe they're going to do a product destined for extraction, and then they might even have an outdoor piece. So we're seeing that more often or a multi-style building.

Ed Keating:

Oh, interesting. Right. Right. And the other piece that you had mentioned is, how far are some of these facilities from traditional power sources? So, how do you figure that? Do you have your team Google maps, doing the flyovers to figure out how far people are away and is this a good place for us to try and sell our product? How does that come into play?

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah. I think, it generally hasn't mattered too much. I think if they are off the beaten path, then they're more likely to have an electric capacity constraint, which would be beneficial for us, I suppose, in that. But again, if they're too far, then they might have issues with getting access to natural gas pipeline.

Ed Keating:

Oh, right. Yeah.

Steve LaFaille:

But there's ways around that too and I'm glad you mentioned it because that has come up on several occasions, where there's a couple of alternatives. So, one would be propane, which obviously can be trucked in. And so we have a couple of customers that are running on 100% propane. They didn't have reasonable access to a natural gas pipeline. We have some other customers that actually participate in a program called, virtual pipeline, where they actually have CNG trailers deliver to their facility and the trailers park there and have a decompression station. And one trailer gets removed and another one backs in and then just a continuous process. So that's another solution.

Steve LaFaille:

And all of those solutions generally, are going to A, have a lower operating cost and the grid electric that you could buy instead. And there are certainly easier ways to solve your electric capacity problem. There's no virtual wires program to get more of an electric capacity there easily. So, that's come up a little bit. So, it's kind of a balance. You want to be close enough so that you can at least hopefully, get on the natural gas pipeline.

Steve LaFaille:

Maybe you didn't have all the electricity you would have liked, but there are solutions around that, that actually have a great outcome for you in other areas of business, as far as your cost structure to operate and so on. But we're looking at every state that's legal right now because some states are going to have a larger savings on utility costs because energy costs more. But again, 50% of our customers are seeking us out, due to those electric capacity constraints and those are going to be present in almost every state.

Ed Keating:

So Steve, what about the size of those grows though, because they differ a lot? And the examples I can think of are on one end, you've got an unlimited license state, like Oklahoma that has thousands and thousands of grows, some of them are just in barns and whatnot. Versus Georgia, a giant potential market, but they've only given out six licenses. Two of them are 100,000 square feet and I think four are 50,000 square feet. So not a lot of canopy across the state. How do you guys assess it as a business? Do we go, trying to secure those couple MSOs in Georgia or is there actually money to be made in a place like Oklahoma?

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah, sure. Great question. So, we're looking for facilities, generally, the starting point that we're looking at is around 10,000 square feet of canopy and up.

Ed Keating:

Oh, okay.

Steve LaFaille:

Which actually, most facilities are going to fall within that.

Ed Keating:

Yeah.

Steve LaFaille:

Some states have micro-license programs where you might have less than that, but we're actually a fit in most facilities because really where you see our systems start to make sense is when you use chilled water for your HVAC. And generally, if you have a 200 to 300-ton cooling load or larger, chilled water's going to make a lot of sense to use. So once you get to that point and you'll hit that cooling load at again, 10,000 square feet of canopy, you've got 250 tons of cooling all day long. So that's the starting point and then we go up from there.

Steve LaFaille:

And the larger you get, it just makes even more sense because if you have a 60,000 square foot canopy and you have a 1,200-ton cooling load, you're going to be used in a fairly sophisticated HVAC system, chilled water distribution, most definitely. And really, that's perfect for us. So, we tend to be a fit in smaller facilities than people would assume, I guess, because the density of cooling that you need per square foot is just so high. So it doesn't take a very big facility that you need a lot of big cooling equipment.

Ed Keating:

Interesting. Now, in terms of looking at particular market segments, one of the groups that lots of people focus on are these large publicly traded MSOs, is this part of their playbook? Are they trying to do this or are they flush with enough cash, where they're always building near where there's plenty of electricity?

Steve LaFaille:

Right, yeah. So, we've seen a little bit of both. We're definitely working with some of the big MSOs, some of the names that everyone listening probably would recognize. But we're also working with a lot of the smaller groups that don't have multiple facilities. And I think we've seen both types of customers face electric capacity constraints. So even the big folks that have more resources, for whatever reason, it seems like there's no exception. People find themselves in that scenario.

Ed Keating:

Yeah.

Steve LaFaille:

But also, we find that if there's an MSO that we're not working with currently, we have found it's more difficult to get them to consider something different because they've created a recipe and they want to stick with that. But I think the individual groups, they're open to trying new ideas because they're trying to compete with those people, those big MSOs.

Ed Keating:

Yes.

Steve LaFaille:

So, they're willing to get creative, try different solutions that can give them an edge. And I think what we're finding is, as all those customers start to use our equipment, including some of the MSOs, the other ones that aren't, are looking over and saying, "Man, maybe we ought to think about considering that because the guy down the street, even if he doesn't have the resources we have, if he's putting this equipment and he's able to cut his utility costs in half, well, he's going to make a lot more profit when the prices start dropping and we might be in trouble." So, we're seeing people adopt on day one and then we're seeing people adopt it later on in their maturity process.

Ed Keating:

Yeah. You get the early adopters and then the fast followers behind them when I realize that they don't want to get left in the dust.

Steve LaFaille:

Exactly, exactly.

Ed Keating:

So, we sometimes see that with Cannabiz Media where people are like, "Well, who else is using this?" And we'll say, "All your competitors."

Steve LaFaille:

No.

Ed Keating:

Yeah, they are.

Steve LaFaille:

Right.

Ed Keating:

Yeah.

Steve LaFaille:

We've reached a level of market penetration in Massachusetts, for example, it's very, very high. And that does come up a lot where people say, "Man, everyone within a 10-mile radius of me has his utility cost cut in half with this equipment. How am I going to compete if I don't do it?"

Ed Keating:

Well, right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So one question I do want to ask, Steve, is how does your team utilize the Cannabiz Media platform? How do we, hopefully, help you find the people that are in need of these services?

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah, no, it's been great. We recently signed on with it and it's just really helpful. Obviously, it's essentially a CRM with contacts already loaded in it, which is wonderful. So you can drill down and figure out who to contact because that's sometimes, always the hardest thing is, "I want to contact this company, but I don't even know where to start."

Ed Keating:

Right.

Steve LaFaille:

Or, "I don't want to spend days on LinkedIn trying to get in touch with them." So that's been great. But the little benefits that we find, just keeping up on industry news.

Ed Keating:

Right.

Steve LaFaille:

We get an email almost every day that tells you all the happenings in the industry and just trying to stay up on that and getting a sense of which markets you want to focus your time on. So that's been great.

Ed Keating:

Oh, good.

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah, it's hugely beneficial to us.

Ed Keating:

Oh, always good to hear as the guy in the data team, I like to hear that the data is being used and put to its best high purpose. So one of the last questions I want to ask, Steve, is the looking forward. We keep track of new jurisdictions that are coming on board or adding to their program, obviously here in New England, my home State of Connecticut is adding adult use, New York, adding adult use, New Jersey, adding adult use, New Mexico, adding adult use, on the other side of the country. What does that mean for you guys, in terms of, are there immediate implications for you or do you have to wait to see where these folks are setting up? When a new state comes on board, what do you and your team have to do to make sure that you get the best opportunities there?

Steve LaFaille:

Sure. Yes, and there's a lot of states that are opening all at once. So, we tend to focus first, on the ones that have higher energy costs, because they're going to have the greatest benefit from us. So, Connecticut's a perfect example. And that is really just trying to reach out to those license holders, give them a brief education about what it is that we do and try to get in touch with their design teams. And the one benefit of having so much success here on the East Coast, is that a lot of the design teams that did these facilities, they're moving on to these other states as they open up and they already know about our technology and they can put it forth to owners to add value. So we follow those folks too, as they enter those new markets, because a lot of our selling is owner-direct, so to speak. But a lot of it is through the consultants that are designing the facilities because they're ultimately selecting the equipment that they feel will be the best fit for their client.

Ed Keating:

Yeah. They're almost a value-added reseller, short of.

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah, exactly. Their clients are counting on them to identify products that are going to move the needle for them. That's one of the many things they're getting paid to do.

Ed Keating:

Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. Because for you, they are people who have a one-to-many relationship, as opposed to an owner where it's one-to-one. So, if you find people who are great and trustworthy and who can put your product forward, that's got to be a great way to land and expand in some of these new markets, especially. Well, great. Well, I wish you luck as you and your team come into my State of Connecticut and all the other ones, because it's definitely proving to be a dynamic year, in terms of new licenses. And one of the things that we've found is, often people are so anxious for, "Well, what are these licenses going to be out?" We know, and I think you do too, that it often takes 12 to 18 months for these licenses to actually get up and running, where they're producing. And I think we're in the midst of that here in some of these states. So, it'll be an exciting time. Any chance that we'll be seeing you at MJ Biz in a couple of weeks, out in Vegas?

Steve LaFaille:

Yeah, absolutely. We'll have a booth there and we look forward to catching up with existing customers and hopefully many new ones.

Ed Keating:

Excellent. Well, Steve, thanks so much for joining us on today's podcast. I'll look forward to seeing you out in Las Vegas and I just encourage our viewers to stay tuned for more updates from the Data Vault.